Legislature(2003 - 2004)

03/16/2004 01:44 PM House FIN

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 9                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Proposing amendments to the Constitution of the State                                                                      
     of Alaska relating to an appropriation limit and a                                                                         
     spending limit.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Stoltze  introduced  HJR 9,  commenting  that                                                                   
this may be  the fifteenth hearing on the measure.  He stated                                                                   
that  a constitutional  spending limit  is appropriate  among                                                                   
the other  fiscal plan measures  being advanced.  He believes                                                                   
that the public  will support the measure, bringing  an added                                                                   
responsibility  to  make  it  especially  well  crafted.  The                                                                   
measure  has evolved  since  he first  introduced  it and  it                                                                   
incorporates provisions  requested by the  Governor's Office.                                                                   
He has  tried to  include enough  exemptions, accompanied  by                                                                   
the limitation,  to anticipate the  needs of the  state along                                                                   
with the anticipated  growth in population. He  expressed his                                                                   
hope that the  measure would allow for the  controlled growth                                                                   
of government.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
TAPE HFC 04 - 57, SIDE B                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
KELLY HUBER,  STAFF TO REPRESENTATIVE STOLTZE,  explained the                                                                   
changes  in the Judiciary  Committee  Substitute.  Section  1                                                                   
outlines  (indisc. -tape  change)  Page 2,  lines 2-5,  state                                                                   
"The  total amount  of  appropriation under  this  subsection                                                                   
made for  a fiscal  year may  not exceed  two percent  of the                                                                   
amount appropriated  for the fiscal year two  years preceding                                                                   
the fiscal year for which the  appropriations are made."  Ms.                                                                   
Huber  noted  the  exclusions   from  the  calculation  of  a                                                                   
spending limit that follow on lines 7 through 29 of page 2.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Section 2 adds a new section stating  that the spending limit                                                                   
would go to the ballot in 2004,  be applied to appropriations                                                                   
in FY  06 and  be reaffirmed  by the  voters every six  years                                                                   
thereafter.   Ms.  Huber  stated   that  the   constitutional                                                                   
amendment  is  based  on  the  two  preceding  fiscal  years'                                                                   
average, with the calculations  set forward by the Governor's                                                                   
Office.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHERYL  FRASCA, DIRECTOR,  DIVISION OF  MANAGEMENT &  BUDGET,                                                                   
OFFICE   OF  THE   GOVERNOR,  stated   that  spending   limit                                                                   
discussions   have   considered    using   inflation   versus                                                                   
population, instead of this proposal  that includes change in                                                                   
the personal income  rate.  The rationale for  using personal                                                                   
income rate as  one indicator is that if  citizens throughout                                                                   
the  state were  doing well  and  their income  went up  each                                                                   
year, it would  be appropriate for the state  to increase its                                                                   
spending.   Then,   if   citizens  were   going   through   a                                                                   
retrenchment due  to recession, the state should  cut back as                                                                   
well. Earlier  discussions indicated  that when the  state is                                                                   
in a recession, ironically some  of the state costs go up for                                                                   
public  assistance  and other  responsibilities.  Ms.  Frasca                                                                   
said it's a toss up which indices  to use. Costs and revenues                                                                   
don't always  go up at the  rate of inflation.   This measure                                                                   
puts  forth using  50%  of the  rate  of change  in  personal                                                                   
income  for  three  calendar  years  averaged  out,  and  the                                                                   
percentage  equal to  the percent  of change  in the  state's                                                                   
population, linking it to the demand for services.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Ms.  Frasca  commented   on  lines  1-2,  page   2,  and  she                                                                   
encouraged the committee to think  seriously about continuing                                                                   
to use a three-fourths vote threshold  because no other state                                                                   
requires such a high threshold to exceed a spending limit.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
In terms  of setting  2% spending  cap, Ms. Frasca  mentioned                                                                   
there might  be extraordinary unanticipated  events requiring                                                                   
additional  spending by  the  state.   Ms.  Frasca felt  that                                                                   
setting the 2% threshold would  bind future legislatures when                                                                   
looking  forward to  events such  as  the buildup  for a  gas                                                                   
pipeline.   She questioned whether  the Legislature  wants to                                                                   
lock that in.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Frasca encouraged selectivity  regarding what is excluded                                                                   
from the limit because it sets  up an incentive to categorize                                                                   
spending  under  things that  are  excluded from  the  limit.                                                                   
Instead  of  being  considered  off  budget,  items  will  be                                                                   
considered off  limit. One addition in the  Judiciary version                                                                   
first excluded University receipts  and then narrowed it down                                                                   
to University tuition. She concluded  that it is an excellent                                                                   
idea to have  re-ratification of the provision  in the future                                                                   
to allow the revisiting of concerns.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Vice-Chair Meyer asked why six  years was chosen for bringing                                                                   
it to a vote again. Representative  Stoltze explained that it                                                                   
was a subjective  judgment based on a bill  before the Senate                                                                   
in 2000  with a provision allowing  safety valves.   It would                                                                   
give the  voters a chance to  reaffirm their support  or back                                                                   
out of it.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Huber  clarified that the  current spending limit  in the                                                                   
Constitution  has only  one re-approval  by the voters  after                                                                   
four years.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Vice-Chair Meyer expressed his  support for HJR 9.  He agreed                                                                   
with Ms. Frasca that a three-fourths  vote in each house is a                                                                   
"high  hurdle" and  asked the  sponsor if  he intended  that.                                                                   
Representative Stoltze  replied that it is arbitrary,  and he                                                                   
acknowledged   that    he   is   cognizant    of   unintended                                                                   
consequences.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Harris  asked  whether the  appropriations  to  pay                                                                   
general  obligation and  revenue  bonds are  included in  the                                                                   
spending cap.  Representative Stoltze replied it  is exempted                                                                   
under (c)(6) on page 2, lines 17-18.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Stoltze commented on  the 2% limit  under the                                                                   
three-fourths vote,  and expressed concern about  setting any                                                                   
percentage limit.   He  suggested that it  should be  part of                                                                   
the committee's discussion whether  the 2% becomes a cap or a                                                                   
floor.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Huber noted  that debt service may not  be excluded under                                                                   
the  Judiciary version,  but it  was excluded  in a  previous                                                                   
version.  In  response to a question by Co-Chair  Harris, Ms.                                                                   
Frasca  clarified  that  (c)(6)  excludes  the  revenue  bond                                                                   
proceeds. One consideration for  discussion is that this does                                                                   
exclude  the  proceeds  from  the  bonds.  She  advised  that                                                                   
increased  costs   of  debt  service  don't   mean  increased                                                                   
revenues  to  the  state.  Under  the  spending  limit,  debt                                                                   
service  would still  need to  be paid,  which competes  with                                                                   
everything else for the same dollars.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Harris  expressed that  the public  has voted  for a                                                                   
revenue  bond appropriation  in an  election that  authorizes                                                                   
the incurrence of  this debt, and he asserted  that it should                                                                   
be  placed  outside   of  a  spending  cap   imposed  on  the                                                                   
Legislature.   Ms. Frasca  replied that  it would create  the                                                                   
incentive  to  incur  debt  to pay  for  costs  because  it's                                                                   
outside the  spending limit, as  opposed to paying  cash. Co-                                                                   
Chair Harris  argued that  the public has  voted to  do that,                                                                   
and  should understand  that  whenever  it votes  on  general                                                                   
obligation bonds.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Croft   agreed  with  Ms.  Frasca   that  the                                                                   
proceeds  in   general  obligation  and  revenue   bonds  are                                                                   
excluded, but it is only the revenue  bond appropriation that                                                                   
is  excluded.  He  felt that  general  obligation  (GO)  debt                                                                   
service makes more sense than  revenue bond debt service.  He                                                                   
asked why the  appropriation to pay GO bonds  is not excluded                                                                   
along with  the appropriation  for revenue bonds.  Ms. Frasca                                                                   
explained that  revenue bond proceeds  are excluded  from the                                                                   
spending  limit  because  an   outside  entity,  such  as  an                                                                   
airport, would  be collecting  the revenues  to pay  for that                                                                   
debt.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Harris  expressed concern with the  spending cap and                                                                   
how to keep under  control the costs of services  that lack a                                                                   
continuous  source of income.  He noted  that a revenue  bond                                                                   
generates its  own revenue by  charging fees. If there  is no                                                                   
payment of fees, there is no service.   He reiterated that if                                                                   
the public  votes to incur  debt service, they  have informed                                                                   
the Legislature of their wishes.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative Stoltze  commented that the Anchorage  tax cap                                                                   
exempts debt service.  Ms. Frasca agreed, but  explained that                                                                   
the voters  are approving  additional  taxes to be  collected                                                                   
from them to pay the debt service.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Representative   Croft  asked   if  the  tobacco   settlement                                                                   
involved revenue  bonds. Ms. Frasca  affirmed. He  then asked                                                                   
if  the  student  loan  that   was  recently  sold  would  be                                                                   
considered  a revenue bond  under this  measure.  Ms.  Frasca                                                                   
affirmed.  Representative  Croft  noted that  he  understands                                                                   
revenue  bond exemptions  for  airports,  but questioned  the                                                                   
tobacco  settlement  and  student   loans  being  under  this                                                                   
exemption. Ms.  Frasca explained  that the tobacco  bond debt                                                                   
service  is  being  paid  by   the  tobacco  settlement.  The                                                                   
repayments  of  student loans  are  paying the  student  loan                                                                   
corporation bond debt service.  She made the distinction that                                                                   
in each  case, an external  entity is providing  the revenues                                                                   
to  pay the  debt service,  as  contrasted with  GO bonds  or                                                                   
school  reimbursement bonds  where  the state  comes up  with                                                                   
general  revenues  or  a  mix  of  other  sources,  including                                                                   
corporate receipts or dividends.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative Croft questioned  exempting AHFC, AIDA, or the                                                                   
student  loan  corporation,  which  he feels  are  almost  an                                                                   
interchangeable  source   of  General  Funds.   He  asked  if                                                                   
exempting them  creates an incentive, pointing  out that that                                                                   
the  student  loan  corporation  can either  pay  a  dividend                                                                   
included  in the  spending  limit,  or it  can  bond on  that                                                                   
revenue stream and it won't be  included in the appropriation                                                                   
limit.  He  asked if  it  doesn't  create  a way  around  the                                                                   
spending limit.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Frasca replied  it is important to distinguish  that this                                                                   
proposal is an  appropriation limit on the spending  side.  A                                                                   
corporate dividend from AHFC is  a fund source, while revenue                                                                   
bonds and the  federal government are distinct  revenues from                                                                   
external sources.   It  is prescribed how  they can  be spent                                                                   
and these are excluded from the spending limit.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Croft noted that  in (c)(5) the  proceeds are                                                                   
exempt, and  in (c)(6) the  appropriations made each  year to                                                                   
pay for the bonding are exempt.   He questioned if this isn't                                                                   
a way  around the  spending limit  itself.   Ms. Frasca  said                                                                   
that  he was  correct,  that  in  this measure,  the  tobacco                                                                   
settlement in  the future  would be a  way to circumvent  the                                                                   
spending limit.   She said that  AHFC is different,  in terms                                                                   
of revenues  generated for  general government purposes  that                                                                   
are fungible.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Croft  asked  why  AHFC is  different.    Ms.                                                                   
Frasca clarified  that (c)(5)  relates to revenue  bonds, and                                                                   
the mechanism  by  which you raise  the money  and repay  the                                                                   
cost. The annual  AHFC dividend is calculated  on a statutory                                                                   
formula, and it's not tied to  selling bonds.  The state ends                                                                   
up  paying AHFC's  debt service  on  their bonds  out of  the                                                                   
dividends.  This governs  the appropriation.   Revenue  bonds                                                                   
where  a third  party pays  debt service  are excluded  under                                                                   
this.  The  chairman has  indicated  that  he also  wants  to                                                                   
exclude the state paying the debt service.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Croft  reiterated  his  concerns  about  AHFC                                                                   
using  revenue bond  proceeds  on the  capital budget,  which                                                                   
would  be excluded  from the  limit.   He questioned  whether                                                                   
always  revenue or GO  bonding the  capital would  circumvent                                                                   
the  appropriation  limit.  Ms.  Frasca  indicated  that  she                                                                   
couldn't track  his scenario,  but explained there  are rules                                                                   
governing revenue bonds. There  must be a source to repay the                                                                   
bonds, and  GO bonds can only  be used for  certain purposes.                                                                   
She  couldn't say  if  the AHFC  dividend,  which  is a  fund                                                                   
source, would be excluded from the appropriation limit.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Croft brought  up a past  proposal to  borrow                                                                   
against future federal transportation  money in order to fund                                                                   
big  projects.   He asked  if that  was a  revenue bond.  Ms.                                                                   
Frasca explained  that it was  the GARVEES and that  the debt                                                                   
service  was paid  by  the  state.   She  was unsure  if  the                                                                   
Department of Revenue  categorized it as a  revenue bond. She                                                                   
commented that  voters approved it  on the ballot,  and there                                                                   
were competing opinions by the attorneys general.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
A discussion ensued between Representatives  Stoltze and Fate                                                                   
and Co-Chair  Harris. Ms. Frasca  noted that it was  the kind                                                                   
of debt service that concerns the chairman.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Harris walked  through the  spending limit,  noting                                                                   
that an increase in the appropriation  would require a three-                                                                   
fourths vote of  both bodies to increase it by  2%.  He asked                                                                   
if  it  is  2%  above  the  amount   appropriated  two  years                                                                   
previously plus 2%. [Answer indisc.]                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Harris asked  the sponsor  if he  had considered  a                                                                   
stair-step provision,  noting that a three-fourths  vote is a                                                                   
high  threshold. He  suggested having  one spending  increase                                                                   
requiring a two-thirds vote and  a higher benchmark at three-                                                                   
fourths.  Representative Stoltze  asked Representative Hawker                                                                   
if he had explored  it in a Ways and Means  Committee version                                                                   
of the proposal.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative Hawker  stated that Ways & Means  reported out                                                                   
a version  with a  stair-step mechanism  of a  fixed 2%  at a                                                                   
fifty  percent  vote, another  2%  increase at  a  two-thirds                                                                   
vote, and an additional 2% increase  at a three-fourths vote.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Harris asked  how much  a 2%  increase would  total                                                                   
today, and  then noted  that it  would be  $40 million  of $2                                                                   
billion   dollars.   He   asked    if   it   is   cumulative.                                                                   
Representative Stoltze replied that it is.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Hawker advised  that this  draft has  changed                                                                   
substantially since last session.  He explained that it would                                                                   
be cumulative  only on the  amount of increase  that actually                                                                   
occurred. It would be cumulative but not compounding.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Croft asked in  Section 16(a) if  the numbers                                                                   
were  negative in  both the  population  growth and  personal                                                                   
income,  would  it bring  the  appropriation  limit down.  He                                                                   
discussed a scenario of a net  increase of zero if population                                                                   
and personal income zero each  other out, resulting in a zero                                                                   
increase appropriation.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Stoltze commented  that the  limit must  also                                                                   
counterbalance where the money is coming from.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Harris expressed that  there is no negative downside                                                                   
in  the amount  of  money that  could be  spent.   He  quoted                                                                   
"Appropriations  made for  a current  fiscal  year shall  not                                                                   
exceed the amount appropriated  for the fiscal year two years                                                                   
immediately  preceding by  more  than fifty  percent,"   --of                                                                   
those two factors. He stated that  there would be a "ceiling"                                                                   
that  you couldn't  go above,  but  you wouldn't  have to  go                                                                   
below it either.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative Croft  asked for a technical  explanation when                                                                   
there are  negative numbers for  population or income  in (1)                                                                   
or  (2).    Co-Chair  Harris  responded  that  it  means  the                                                                   
appropriation can't be more than in the previous year.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
BRUCE TANGEMAN, FISCAL ANALYST,  LEGISLATIVE FINANCE DIVISION                                                                   
responded  to   Representative  Croft   that  based   on  his                                                                   
scenario, the appropriation could go down.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Croft  asked  for  clarification  on  whether                                                                   
negative numbers in  (1) and (2) would reduce the  base.  Mr.                                                                   
Tangeman replied  yes, it is possible that  the appropriation                                                                   
limit would go  down if both income and population  are going                                                                   
down, and the  previous three-year average is  added together                                                                   
and halved.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Croft  commented  that  this could  mean  the                                                                   
appropriations have  to be reduced  from the base year.   Mr.                                                                   
Tangeman briefly  noted that 37 states have  spending limits.                                                                   
Their revenue sources are income  or sales taxes, or both. If                                                                   
their  population or  personal incomes  decrease, the  states                                                                   
generate less tax, or revenue,  and the spending limits would                                                                   
need to go down. He said that  Alaska is unique because it is                                                                   
not  linking the  spending limit  to  revenue, although  this                                                                   
measure is using similar scenarios.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Croft  noted that  the University  of  Alaska                                                                   
federal research  grants are excluded, and asked  if research                                                                   
grants  from  nonprofits are  also  excluded.  Representative                                                                   
Stoltze  replied (c)(10)  probably addresses  it. Ms.  Frasca                                                                   
recalled   that   the   example  she   had   discussed   with                                                                   
Representative  Stoltze was  the  University Foundation,  not                                                                   
research grants from nonprofits.   She confirmed that federal                                                                   
grants  are excluded but  was unsure  how nonprofit  research                                                                   
grants are categorized.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Representative Hawker  questioned (c)(11) exempting  tuition.                                                                   
The  University  of  Alaska  creates  receipt  authority  and                                                                   
appropriates money in excess of  what they expect to receive,                                                                   
and not  just federal  receipt authority but  in the  area of                                                                   
private  contributions and  funding. He  recalled that  it is                                                                   
more than  $65 million.  He said it  would seem that  receipt                                                                   
authority is subject  to the spending limit, and  it might be                                                                   
one of the  first to go,  setting the University up  with the                                                                   
inability to receive private grant monies.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Ms.  Frasca explained  that the  assumption is  that the  $65                                                                   
million in  "empty receipt authority"  would be the  base for                                                                   
the future  spending limit. Only  when the University  got up                                                                   
to $65 million in actual receipts  would it be limited by the                                                                   
percentage  change in the  spending limit  in the future.  In                                                                   
previous versions,  University receipts  were excluded.   She                                                                   
predicted  that in  the future,  new  expenditures would  get                                                                   
categorized  as University  receipts.   She advised  that any                                                                   
time an off-limit  category is set up, there  is an incentive                                                                   
to recategorize  spending, and she urged caution  in deciding                                                                   
what is excluded from the limit.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Hawker posed a  hypothetical dilemma,  asking                                                                   
whether the Legislature would  increase Medicaid or keep this                                                                   
empty receipt  authority at the University, and  he suggested                                                                   
that  the  Legislature  would  sacrifice  the  empty  receipt                                                                   
authority.  It would pump  up the  Medicaid appropriation  in                                                                   
the current budget by $65 million  but in the following year,                                                                   
there would  no receipt authority.  He advised  using extreme                                                                   
caution                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Representative Hawker  noted that (c)(10) is  extremely vague                                                                   
and asked what  is money held in trust.  Ms.  Frasca gave the                                                                   
example  of  the  public  school  trust  fund,  which  has  a                                                                   
dedicated  stream.  She said  there  aren't  a lot  of  trust                                                                   
funds. Representative Hawker observed  that the Mental Health                                                                   
Trust is a true trust fund. He  asked if "money held in trust                                                                   
by the state" isn't much broader  language. He suggested that                                                                   
designated funds  are also monies  held in trust.  Ms. Frasca                                                                   
offered  to check  with the  Department of  Revenue, but  she                                                                   
didn't expect  that designated  fund sources would  fall into                                                                   
that category.  In response to  a question by  Representative                                                                   
Hawker, Ms.  Frasca concurred  that the  legal intent  of the                                                                   
language in (c)(10) is to tie down specific trusts.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Hawker pointed  out that  money held  by debt                                                                   
covenant  or by  other  legal covenants  of  the state  would                                                                   
clearly be money held in trust.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Representative Hawker brought  up the base formula in Section                                                                   
16(a)(1) and  (2) on page  1, and agreed with  Representative                                                                   
Croft that with  mathematical logic, it has  the potential to                                                                   
go  negative. He  asked  the number  for  this  year and  the                                                                   
projections for  the next two  years. Ms. Frasca  stated that                                                                   
it was calculated for FY 06 at a 3.47% increase.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Croft asked  who  estimated personal  income.                                                                   
Ms. Frasca replied the source  is the U.S. Bureau of Economic                                                                   
Analysis. The data for 2003 will  not be available until this                                                                   
April.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Hawker  requested a  hypothetical  projection                                                                   
using  the numbers  through 2002,  with 3.47%  for FY 06  and                                                                   
extrapolating  on the presumption  that would remain  steady.                                                                   
He asked  if there have been  any attempts to contrast  it to                                                                   
increasing   state   expenditures    that   are   known   and                                                                   
quantifiable. He  noted that there  is a footnote on  all the                                                                   
projections  stating,  "this  projection  is based  on  level                                                                   
General Fund  spending of $2.3  billion dollars a year."   He                                                                   
argued that there is a fallacy  in that presumption, with 15%                                                                   
compounding  increases  in  Medicaid  and the  issue  of  the                                                                   
public retirement systems.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
TAPE HFC 04 - 58, Side A                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Representative Hawker continued.  He asked if the State would                                                                   
be  "setting itself  up" with  the budget  spending limit  to                                                                   
have to close  schools because there isn't money  to meet the                                                                   
State's contractual obligations.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Tangeman explained  that he had gone backward  to 1996 to                                                                   
determine the projection.  Representative  Hawker argued that                                                                   
there were  forward projections  the last  time this  measure                                                                   
was discussed.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Fate  brought  up the  University  of  Alaska                                                                   
research grants  and pointed  out that  the Board of  Regents                                                                   
has  broad   constitutional  powers  to  determine   how  the                                                                   
accounting is done.   He thought it was problematic  to place                                                                   
it  in  a spending  limit  because  of  those  constitutional                                                                   
powers,   absent  any   statutory   language  demanding   the                                                                   
University  do  that.    If the  language  exists,  then  the                                                                   
University must comply, but he  was not aware of any existing                                                                   
language.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Harris thought the concern  was that the Legislature                                                                   
provides yearly authorization  to the University to spend and                                                                   
receive.    All  monies the  University  receives  must  come                                                                   
through the Legislature.   He voiced concern  with the amount                                                                   
of  general  funds  authorized  from  year  to  year  without                                                                   
knowing what  the recurring revenue  sources will  be, saying                                                                   
some revenues  are a  one-time occurrence  that shouldn't  be                                                                   
built into the base.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Frasca stated that she had  misspoken regarding the funds                                                                   
held  in   trust,  clarifying   that  those  are   retirement                                                                   
appropriations for the administration  of retirement programs                                                                   
for  FICA,  PERS  and TRS,  JRS,  National  Guard  retirement                                                                   
system, and the Mental Health Trust.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Croft asked  if the Marine  Highway  Fund and                                                                   
oil spill contingency are held  in trust.  Ms. Frasca did not                                                                   
think that  any of those  would apply. Representative  Hawker                                                                   
stated that  it is  a definition issue  of "trust  and agency                                                                   
funds."                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Harris stated that if  the funds are spent, they are                                                                   
not recurring sources of revenue.  Representative Croft asked                                                                   
if appropriations  into the trust  would still be  within the                                                                   
appropriation limit.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Frasca  replied that  deposits into  the endowment  would                                                                   
also  count  in the  limit,  but  not the  endowment  balance                                                                   
itself.  Representative Croft  asked  if there  was a  firmer                                                                   
definition  of "trust,"  because he was  curious about  Power                                                                   
Cost Equalization (PCE) and the Marine Highways.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Croft noted  excess authority  in the  Kodiak                                                                   
Launch Facility. He  asked if it would be exempt.  Ms. Frasca                                                                   
replied  that   they  are  primarily  federally   funded  and                                                                   
statutorily  designated.  Representative  Croft thought  that                                                                   
the  Facility  could  be increasing  the  civilian  satellite                                                                   
launches from  a base of 5  launches per year.   He expressed                                                                   
concern that  with the constitutional amendment,  $50 million                                                                   
would need  to cut from  other areas because  Kodiak received                                                                   
$50 million in business.  Ms.  Frasca stated that it does not                                                                   
appear that Kodiak  would be excluded.   Representative Croft                                                                   
thought that it did not make much sense.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Harris expressed  concern  with  the definition  of                                                                   
general funds.  He stressed  that when there  is not  a known                                                                   
source of revenue,  the Legislature should not  depend on it.                                                                   
He suggested that the revenue sources should be defined.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Representative Stoltze interjected  that when the measure was                                                                   
conceived, it attempted  to grasp actual funding.   There are                                                                   
drafting challenges  and the  original version addresses  the                                                                   
general fund spending.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Harris  asked if  this  is  an attempt  to  address                                                                   
annual spending when  there is not the backup  for the money.                                                                   
He  thought  that  grants  and  business  charges  should  be                                                                   
encouraged.  He   noted  that  the  Kodiak   Launch  Facility                                                                   
operates  on the  amount  of business  it  can generate  even                                                                   
though  it receives  authority to  spend money.   A  parallel                                                                   
example is the receipt authority  given to the University for                                                                   
general  funds  while being  expected  to raise  tuition  and                                                                   
apply for grants.  He did not want to discourage that.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Frasca stated  that the challenge is to  determine if the                                                                   
Legislature wants  to limit the  growth of government,  which                                                                   
HJR  9 addresses,  or to  limit  how much  the spending  from                                                                   
certain revenue  sources can  increase from  one year  to the                                                                   
next.  She  gave the example  of the tax limit  in Anchorage,                                                                   
which limits  how much taxes can  go up from one year  to the                                                                   
next. It is a limit on a fund  source. She cautioned that the                                                                   
proliferation  of  designated  fund  sources  over  the  past                                                                   
decade has eroded  the General Fund and set up  gross in non-                                                                   
General Fund areas.  Those monies  go to particular programs.                                                                   
The pure  general funds tend to  be spent on  the traditional                                                                   
responsibilities   of  government  that  include   education,                                                                   
transportation   maintenance   and  operation,   corrections,                                                                   
public safety,  the Legislature,  the Governor's  Office, and                                                                   
the court  system.   The challenge, she  said, is  whether to                                                                   
apply the limit  to only the general fund portion,  and allow                                                                   
the  non-general fund  activity to  go unchecked.   It  would                                                                   
create an incentive to re-categorize funding.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Harris  noted  that  the  difference  is  that  the                                                                   
Legislature  has  the appropriation  authority  to  determine                                                                   
where the  money will be  spent.  He  commented on  the small                                                                   
cost of  operating the Division  of Motor Vehicles  while the                                                                   
receipts charged  to the public  are relatively large.  It is                                                                   
general  funds, but  annual revenue  that is  counted on.  He                                                                   
questioned  how to  control the  costs but  not penalize  the                                                                   
agencies.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Tangeman commented  that it is Alaska's  dilemma compared                                                                   
to other states whose appropriation  is directly connected to                                                                   
their revenue source.  Other states generate new revenues.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Representative Stoltze  agreed to continue discussion  of the                                                                   
measure  with  Representative   Hawker  and  other  committee                                                                   
members.   Co-Chair Harris  stated that  he is supportive  of                                                                   
the  concept   of  containment   of  government   growth  but                                                                   
expressed that it is a difficult concept to address.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Fate noted  that  there  had been  discussion                                                                   
regarding  revenues  rather  than   expenditures.  He  voiced                                                                   
appreciation   of  the  revenue   approach  discussion,   and                                                                   
applauded Representative Stoltze's work on the bill.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Croft asked if  the bills  would be  moved at                                                                   
the  next meeting.  Co-Chair  Harris  stated  that they  each                                                                   
measure needs  a fair  amount of  work before being  reported                                                                   
out  of Committee.   Co-Chair  Williams asked  Representative                                                                   
Croft for his changes before the next meeting.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Williams  stated  that  HJR  9  would  be  HELD  in                                                                   
Committee for further consideration.                                                                                            

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